Dirty!

topic posted Sat, April 12, 2008 - 6:04 AM by  offlinezombiefied
Do people who are uneducated see belly dance as dirty?
I ask this because of what happened to me recently...
Every year we dance at a local kindie
Well I was invited to a Middle Eastern luncheon for said kindie, and I made an inquiry as if they would like some entertainment
I was volunteering of course, and this person was like "Oh, no I don't think that would be such a great idea... It's for a kinder..."
Well gosh, I wanted to strip for these kids too!
posted by:
zombiefied
Australia
  • Re: Dirty!

    Sat, April 12, 2008 - 8:00 AM
    when you say "kindie" do you mean kindergarten? just wanted to make sure I understood the scenario. As for your basic question, yes a lot of people do think that BD is some form of stripping/exotic dance. A lot that has to do with the way BD was been portrayed in movies and, in America at least, the whole "make your husband a sultan" (which is a really good album) way that BD was reintroduced in the 1960's. That and the way that western society has viewed women and their bodies as dirty, so looking at a woman's is seen as dirty too. Probably part of why so many girls and women have self-image and self-confidence problems.

    As for the issue of of performing for small children, I think it's cool to give kids exposure to different cultures and art forms. At the same time, and this is just a personal thing and everyone else is completely welcome to disagree, just about everything in our culture today is geared for kids. can't we have at least one fun thing that's for adults?
  • Re: Dirty!

    Sat, April 12, 2008 - 1:31 PM
    people that are uneducated of this dance, DO usualy find it to be close to pole dance or anything as dirty. People are so stupid. Usually the older or more conservative folks find it offensive.
    • Re: Dirty!

      Sun, April 13, 2008 - 6:02 AM
      Usually the older or more conservative folks find it offensive.

      Careful with that generalization. I find that older people love belly dance. They were in the prime of their lives when belly dance had its late sixties/early seventies heyday.
      The MTV media portrayl of belly dancers is far more damaging. Young open minded people spend their time staring vacantly at music videos.
      • Re: Dirty!

        Sun, April 13, 2008 - 7:55 AM
        LOL!!!! Older??? I know what you mean as far as conservative. But as you know, women of all ages bellydance, and its BEAUTIFUL to see the varieties of women we are blessed to have exist. There are "conservative" bellydancers as well. It just depends on what YOU mean by conservative.
        Naya, yes, the MTV shit is pissing me off! I wont even look at it unless my boyfriend is skimming through channels. Bleh, sickening what the media does to us. But we are still trying to earn the respect we deserve. MTV makes it that much harder though.
        • Re: Dirty!

          Sun, April 13, 2008 - 10:03 AM
          why what's going on with TV and BD? I know there area couple hip hop songs that compare BD to lap dancing, but other than that I'm out of touch.
          • Re: Dirty!

            Sun, April 13, 2008 - 6:43 PM
            A lot of it also has to do with Orientalism. Back in the heyday of colonialism European and American Christians often stereotyped members of the other Abrahamic religions as being lewd and lusty. These stereotypes were used as justification for colonization in foreign countries and bigotry at home. The idea was that anything "they" did was dirty and anything "we" did was pure. There was also a lot of wishful thinking on the part of white men regarding what they could get away with in the middle east and these ideas were only encouraged by travelogues by guys like Flaubert. That's how the harem (literally women's area of the house) became the subject of many overheated fantasies and raqs sharki became the lascivicous hoochie koochy dance. During wars old prejudices get trotted out by all sides, and we're seeing a resurgance of Orientalism.
            • Re: Dirty!

              Tue, April 15, 2008 - 1:42 PM
              This makes a lot of sense. In Amel Tafsout's latest workshop I took from her she talked about colonialism of the Algerian region, and how when soldiers started coming they forced/requested the dancers to dance nude. They would put a screen of some sort between the dancers and the band so that the women could keep their modesty in front of their tribe. (and I really hope I'm remembering this correctly)
          • Re: Dirty!

            Sun, April 20, 2008 - 8:20 AM
            Yes Erin, thats what Im refering to. The COUNTLESS videos and reality shows on MTV AND VH1. Look at Rock of Love. Brett Micheals exploiting bellydancers. Sick! MTV rap/R&B videos DO compare lap dance with bellydance.
            • Re: Dirty!

              Sun, April 20, 2008 - 10:43 AM
              ?REally? What happened on ROL?
              • Re: Dirty!

                Mon, April 21, 2008 - 6:06 PM
                the hiphop songs bother me a lot. i even know some younger girls that don't seem to get that the rappers are just throwing the word bellydancer in to get attention and make money. they think it's "neat" to hear it in rap songs.

                what did happen on rock of love?
      • Re: Dirty!

        Sun, April 20, 2008 - 10:07 AM
        "Usually the older or more conservative folks find it offensive." Maybe more conservative, but not necessarily older. I had a birthday dinner for my entire extended family. This included grandma and grandpa (my parents, in their late 70s), brothers-in-law, sisters, my kids and boyfriends (20s), and nieces/nephews (also in their 20s). At said birthday dinner, I did a sword dance as the "birthday entertainment," making sure everyone knew they didn't need to attend if it made them uncomfortable. Everyone, from oldster to youngster, came to see it, and I got a thank-you from my mother, "Almost best of all was your unique entertainment. We all enjoyed that so much, You are talented in more than music, crafts, and cooking! Thank you, I'm so proud of you!"

        This from my mother, who never let us take dancing or play cards when we were younger. So it just depends on the mind-set, not necessarily the age, although I hear what you're saying.
  • Re: Dirty!

    Tue, April 15, 2008 - 1:07 PM
    I think it's more the closed-minded than the uneducated.

    Seriously, ignorant people get a bad rap. There's a world of difference between someone who doesn't know much about a subject (and isn't afraid to admit it and learn more), and someone who knows a little bit about something (but has already made a value judgement, and doesn't want any more information).
  • Re: Dirty!

    Fri, April 18, 2008 - 1:27 PM
    Speaking on behalf of my grandmother I have to say she is pretty conservative. When she first saw a video of the BDSS she told me the girls had the bottoms of their costumes too low and you could almost see their "privates" -she said this not me. ;-p Anyway, after I started dancing she got used to seeing the costumes and now knows it to be something cultural and good; not something to be frowned upon as she was doing before she knew about it.

    I think people just build on what they are taught (by their parents, the media, and even their own beliefs to begin with) so, when they see something they deem as "bad" it tends to stay that way for as long as they live. However, my own grandmother is an example that getting knowledge out there may not change all people, but it can change a few. And I must say a few is a hell of a lot better than none at all! :-)
    • Re: Dirty!

      Fri, April 18, 2008 - 5:47 PM
      Sorry, exactly what do you see as "cultural" about the very low-cut "waists" of the BDSS?

      Almost every culture covers much more of the navel-to-hip area than the BDSS's costumes do.

      "Good" or "bad" can be aesthetic, but "cultural" is a stretch.
      • Re: Dirty!

        Fri, April 18, 2008 - 8:18 PM
        Sorry my bad. I used craptastic wording, but what I as trying to get at was that when you take on bellydance you learn a lot about the cultures from the different regions in which the certain styles, costumes, and all that stuff that comes along with bellydance comes from. I wasn't trying to make the costume sound like it was cultural or that waist lines on costumes were only found to be certain lengths in certain regions of the world.
        • Re: Dirty!

          Sat, April 19, 2008 - 10:29 AM
          It doesn't sound like Gramma made a value judgment on the dance when she saw the BDSS. Seriously, unless she said something else, she was reacting only to the revealing costuming. Considering that some of the BDSS costumes stop below the hip bone, I quite see her point.

          Grandmother doesn't sound very conservative to me, she sounds fairly broad-minded, and clear-thinking.
          • Re: Dirty!

            Sun, April 20, 2008 - 6:39 PM
            I'd say the BDSS low waistline is cultural--American culture. If a member of a culture wants to make a value judgment about their own culture it can't really be called ignorant or uninformed. BDSS is as American as taco pizza and apple pie. Yes, these things had origin in other cultures but we changed them almost beyond all recognition. A lot of the critiques I've seen of BDSS are Americans criticizing things they don't like about American culture (for example, the idea that only the young and very thin ought to be in the public eye, that women need to wear revealing clothes to be considered worth paying attention to, blatant commercialism and Vegas-style excess). These are all valid questions for any American to ask of their own culture and would have been raised even if Mr. Copeland had decided to create Modern Jazz Superstars instead of Bellydance Superstars. I believe that most of the criticism of BDSS does not arise from an ignorance of Middle Eastern culture, but rather from full knowledge of American culture.
  • Re: Dirty!

    Mon, April 21, 2008 - 9:33 PM
    Well...Belly Dance is sensual, and sensual and sexual aren't really that different, so I guess if you think about it that way, it could be "dirty" if you were intending it to be. But I think Belly Dancers are in denial about how closely we really are to strippers, only most of us aren't as good as strippers. And back in the day, in a tribal society, where Belly Dance supposedly came from, people really weren't as nutted up about their sexuality as we are today. Maybe we should all just chill, it's not that big of a deal. Just my opinion.
    • Re: Dirty!

      Tue, April 22, 2008 - 10:28 AM
      Pardon my ignorance, but how is a rural Middle Eastern folk dance close to stripping? Is this a comment on the "all women are hos" mentality so prevalent in pop culture? I am also a bit confused about these tribal societies. Which ones are they? Tribal societies aren't homogenous lumps, but unique cultures with their own taboos, rituals, and cultural practices. Again, this may be my ignorance but I seem to recall that while different societies have different sexual taboos, all societies have some sexual taboos. For instance, women may be more open about heterosexuality in Cairo than in Detroit, but homosexuality is a greater taboo.
    • Re: Dirty!

      Tue, April 22, 2008 - 2:07 PM
      I don't see the correlation between strippers and bellydance. Strippers are called strippers because they take off thier clothes and dance (I do have to admit that a lot of strippers are VERY athletic) and often times as a bellydancer (particularly if you do ATS or folkloric) we wear more clothes than the average person out running errands. I really dont' think we're close to strippers at all. I think bellydance is in a completely separate catagory.
  • Re: Dirty!

    Tue, April 22, 2008 - 2:11 PM
    My wife gave a public demonstration of bellydance at a local library a few weeks ago, and despite her repeated efforts to emphasize the cultural heritage of the dance, and to distance herself as far as humanly possible from the sexual stereotypes, the first question during the Q&A was this little old lady asking, "If you did this in public, on a street corner, would you get arrested?"

    (sigh)

    Some people just cannot have their minds opened, no matter what...
    • Re: Dirty!

      Tue, April 22, 2008 - 9:14 PM
      The little old lady was probly still stuck in the old burlesque days... when that was what bellydance was. stripping, being sexy for men.
      Back in the 20's and even into the 60's it was burlesque that people thought of when they heard bellydance...

      My mother in law started dancing after she got out of the army. My friends mom danced before she had kids. Its all part of where you grew up, and who and what you were exposed to as a child.

      I think bellydance is extremely sensual, can be sexual if its played out that way. I deal with that allot, from both men and women when I go and dance. there have been times when I've had friends pull me away from people cuz I wanna beat thier faces in, there have been times when my husband almost started a fight with one of my troupemates husbands because he, in play, put a dollar in her bra... he dosnt want us looked at as strippers, and that's what he felt the bra thing was portraying...

      but now I am rambling in my flu fever induced stupor...
      • Re: Dirty!

        Wed, April 23, 2008 - 9:28 PM
        And yet there is still Burlesque Belly Dance, with pasties and all, how is that any different from stripping? How is it that a woman can get on stage, and perform a Burlesque dance, and it's art, and a woman can get on stage at a club, and perform a Burlesque dance and it's slutty? Belly dancers in restaurants having people stick dollar bills in their costumes as they dance is okay, but a stripper working for money is not okay? How many double standars to we need before we become secure in our dance?

        I really think it comes down to strippers own their sexuality and aren't afraid of it, and most belly dancers and women in general are afraid to be sexual because it carries a social stigma. Hence the negative reaction to strippers. And what I was talking about in tribal societies, is that tribal groups are usually very open about their sexuality. No clothes, no stigma, they don't hide it, their not ashamed of it. And Belly Dance having come from somewhere(no one really knows exactly where) being a part of a tribal society(we think anyway), and Belly Dance having that sensual aspect to it, it's a logical connection that they probably wouldn't be worried about it being "too sexual".
        • Re: Dirty!

          Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:40 AM
          It's hard to respond to this without knowing exactly which societies you're referring to, but the idea that no clothes = no sexual stigmas is reductive bordering on offensive. Even small tribal societies are quite complex, and there are definitely taboos and mores controlling who has sex with whom and how sexuality is expressed. Just because we don't understand how different mannerisms, gestures, and garments are coded doesn't mean it's not there. For instance, a Bedouin woman might think westerners are completely open about their sexuality because we go around in bare arms, above the knee hemlines and with our hair uncovered. In fact, she might think the Chicken Dance is highly sexual because it involves women dressed "immodestly" touching hands with men who aren't relatives or spouses. What she wouldn't see are the invisible lines Westerners fear to cross, how two dresses that look equally "naked" to her have different cultural meanings, and how unimportant looking gestures convey deep meaning. That's why studying other cultures or past cultures is so hard, we have to understand them on their own terms.
          • Re: Dirty!

            Wed, April 30, 2008 - 5:53 PM
            I agree that my lumping of all tribes into one is not the correct assumption. When I think of "tribal", I automatically think of the original "tribe", whatever that may be, and my perspective of tribal, being primitive in some ways is what I was basing my argument on. And in primitive society, sex didn't carry the same taboos in the same ways as I understand it.

            How about this?

            For everyone, how exactly are strippers different than belly dancers? We both work for money(when we can get it), we both perform, we both have an essence of sexuality/sensuality/mystery for the benefit of drawing the audience in. We cover our bodies and then reveal what's underneath. How are we different?!
            • Re: Dirty!

              Thu, May 1, 2008 - 5:29 AM
              "We cover our bodies and then reveal what's underneath."

              Not all of us, or not intentionally.
              • Re: Dirty!

                Thu, May 1, 2008 - 3:03 PM
                also there is not a single across the board attitude/view on stripping is in this country. what stripping is differs both in how it is seen by people and the laws that apply to it from state to state and city to city. some places it's just topless, while in others it is fully naked. some places it is an athletic art form or a way for collage girls to make some money. Other places it is seen as groveling for money and the last resort for junkies one step above prostitution. (I'm not saying any of these are my opinion. These are attitudes I have seen in the various places I have lived) This is why it is important that we make clear definitions about what it is we do and not hope that others make the same assumptions as us.
              • Re: Dirty!

                Fri, May 2, 2008 - 5:12 PM
                It's ironic that you say that , because in your picture you're holding a veil, do you ever wrap your veil around your body and then take it off as part of a dance? Or cover your body with it while you dance and then unwrap it? Is this all to add to the sensuality and mystery of your dance? Just curious.
                • Re: Dirty!

                  Fri, May 2, 2008 - 6:06 PM
                  That comment strikes me as trolling, I am afraid.

                  Dancing with a veil is an artistic expression and one of the many tools a well-rounded dancer will use, similar to dancing with other props - and hey, sometimes dancing with a piece of pretty-colored silk is just plain fun. For most serious dancers, it has zilch to do with what this line of reasoning tries to suggest.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Dirty!

                    Fri, May 2, 2008 - 10:42 PM
                    Strippers are paid to pretend men they normally wouldn't look twice at are sexually appealing. Belly dancers are paid to provide light entertainment. There's a huge difference. A belly dancer is more like a pop idol or starlet, she performs primarily for herself and those who like what she does pay to watch. A stripper can't perform primarily for herself if she wants to make any money. There's club fees, bribes to the bouncers and bartenders, protection money to the cops, you name it. ( That is if she's got the proper papers. If she doesn't have a work permit or was trafficed she's got even more problems and less legal recourse.) A stripper has to do what her clients want regardless of if she finds it stupid, gross, or just plain boring. She can't walk away or refuse to dance her shift if she wants her pay. She can't demand pay up front. Most strippers who've left the trade and gone on to write about it say that's why the job sucks, the pay is usually crap and you can't be yourself when you're being paid to be someone else's fantasy. A lot of strippers don't want to be strippers, it's just a way to make the rent. I've never heard of a belly dancer who didn't really want to belly dance. the pay is usually crap in belly dance, but most belly dancers feel that dance gives them a means of being creative and expressing themselves. Basically, belly dance and stripping are different because the socioeconomics are different, because the pressures faced by strippers and belly dancers are different, because the incidence of on-the-job harassment is different, because the emotional outcome is different. Essentially saying belly dance and stripping are the same because "sexy" women are paid to do both is like claiming a raven is the same as a writing desk because both have an "r". You don't need to try writing on a raven to see the massive hole in that logic.
                    • Re: Dirty!

                      Tue, May 6, 2008 - 7:28 PM
                      Great!!! At least we're talking about the difference now, and not just slamming strippers!!!! My whole incentive behind my argument is that most belly dancers are always looking down their noses at strippers when in the end we're all dancers, even if we don't agree with the intent behind the dance or the way it is interpreted. I agree, the intent is usually different. There is usually a different motivation. But if so many belly dancers weren't such bitches about strippers, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's the implication that we're somehow so much better than they are, that really pisses me off. And in the end, most strippers really are equal or better dancers. Whether you agree or not, maybe we don't have to diss them, maybe we can start giving them validity as fellow dancers. I think they've earned it.
        • Re: Dirty!

          Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:08 AM
          When it comes to how we look at tipping: I believe it is a matter of cultural context: In the context of Middle Eastern dance, tipping the dancer is originally a positive, culturally appropriate expression of appreciation. In the context of stripping, tipping a dancer in a Western strip club is something a bit different. Looking at both practices different is not a double standard, it shows an understanding of bellydance as an ethnic dance form that comes with practices and traditions that may not always line up with our Western culture.

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